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Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
[版面:葵花宝典][首篇作者:hci] , 2019年05月13日14:47:26 ,3927次阅读,121次回复
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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 13:41:04 2019, 美东)

It's a matter of 0 or 1. Once you have 1, you can have 2, 3, to 1000.
Without the 1, you got nothing.

My point is the 1 can only be brought about by at most two persons. There's
no denying that. At least you have not come up with any counter-example so
far.

Try harder.

I am curious too.

【 在 Caravel (克拉维尔) 的大作中提到: 】
: If you read the history of linux kernel and python carefully, you will get
: what I meant here. The first version of Linus is only a toy project of an
: undergraduate student, which is nothing comparable with the current
version
: see say today. Python? Take a look at the long list of PEPs ...
: are



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guvest
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发信人: guvest (我爱你老婆Anna), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 14:25:25 2019, 美东)

It took others more than 30 years to figure out that the Poincare
Hypothesis was one of the most important math problems.

The context or the setup of a work is at least as important as the work
itself because the context defined the meaning and the value of the work.



【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: 这些都是文集。没有必要抬杠了,大家都明白的意思。
: 软件写作的这种个人特性,是被学界和工业界刻意掩盖了的。
: 但任何真正搞过系统的人都知道。软件就是一个人,最多两个人写的,其余的人都是打
: 酱油的。其实就是学校的学生group course project,都是这样,无一列外。大家都做
: 过学生的,扪心自问,是不是这样。






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guvest
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发信人: guvest (我爱你老婆Anna), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 14:32:52 2019, 美东)

counter-examples: Quantum Mechanics, thermodynamics , ....

【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: It's a matter of 0 or 1. Once you have 1, you can have 2, 3, to 1000.
: Without the 1, you got nothing.
: My point is the 1 can only be brought about by at most two persons. There'
s
: no denying that. At least you have not come up with any counter-example so
: far.
: Try harder.
: I am curious too.
: version




--
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Caravel
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发信人: Caravel (克拉维尔), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 14:51:59 2019, 美东)

Lol, Every building must have a first brick. But it doesn't mean the first
brick is the most important one. Think about it: Was Python' initial version
so much better than all the other attempts? I think Guido won't agree with
you. He attributes the success of python to continuously bringing in
improvements and ideas from the entire community.


【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: It's a matter of 0 or 1. Once you have 1, you can have 2, 3, to 1000.
: Without the 1, you got nothing.
: My point is the 1 can only be brought about by at most two persons. There'
s
: no denying that. At least you have not come up with any counter-example so
: far.
: Try harder.
: I am curious too.
: version



--
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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 14:52:29 2019, 美东)

Are these software?

【 在 guvest (我爱你老婆Anna) 的大作中提到: 】
: counter-examples: Quantum Mechanics, thermodynamics , ....
: s



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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 14:58:03 2019, 美东)

I am talking about the concrete act of building a software.

Of course nothing comes out of nowhere.

But the concrete act of initially put an idea (which might be the results of
countless interaction with thousands of people) into a single piece of
running code, can only be done by at most two people. I have not found any
evidence to the contrary. Everything I read, all the work I personally
involved with, and all the things have heard, do not provide a single
counter-example.

【 在 guvest (我爱你老婆Anna) 的大作中提到: 】
: It took others more than 30 years to figure out that the Poincare
: Hypothesis was one of the most important math problems.
: The context or the setup of a work is at least as important as the work
: itself because the context defined the meaning and the value of the work.



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helpme
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发信人: helpme (名虚胖字满肥), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 14:58:32 2019, 美东)

of course most software projects are created by one person or two first if
started from scratch, as there was zero lines of code in the begining.
nobody will ask 20 hackers to start writing main() for same project at same
time.


but I don't think you can discredit others who contributed in later stages,
especially complex commercial software.


【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: It's a matter of 0 or 1. Once you have 1, you can have 2, 3, to 1000.
: Without the 1, you got nothing.
: My point is the 1 can only be brought about by at most two persons. There'
s
: no denying that. At least you have not come up with any counter-example so
: far.
: Try harder.
: I am curious too.
: version



--
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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 15:05:41 2019, 美东)

Nobody is discrediting anybody.

But the fact is a fact. Disregard basic facts results in sloppy reasoning
and wrong decision making, e.g. prioritizing the less important thing.

Static typing is helpful, nobody is disputing that. Is it helpful enough to
worth the crippling effect on an individual's ability to do things? Not so
much. Type system is just too weak.

【 在 helpme (名虚胖字满肥) 的大作中提到: 】
: of course most software projects are created by one person or two first if
: started from scratch, as there was zero lines of code in the begining.
: nobody will ask 20 hackers to start writing main() for same project at
same
: time.
: but I don't think you can discredit others who contributed in later stages
,
: especially complex commercial software.
: s



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Caravel
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发信人: Caravel (克拉维尔), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 15:10:38 2019, 美东)

There are certainly tons of counter examples. For a corporate software. the
first runable version is more likely completed by more than 2 people. The
open source projects are probably more likely done by 1 or 2 persons because
they are hobby projects at the beginning. 

【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: I am talking about the concrete act of building a software.
: Of course nothing comes out of nowhere.
: But the concrete act of initially put an idea (which might be the results
of
:  countless interaction with thousands of people) into a single piece of
: running code, can only be done by at most two people. I have not found any
: evidence to the contrary. Everything I read, all the work I personally
: involved with, and all the things have heard, do not provide a single
: counter-example.



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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 15:14:02 2019, 美东)

I have personally done plenty of corporate software to know that it's the
same as in open source. A lead will do it with the help of another guy, then
other people join in. When other joins, the core thing is already working.
There's no exception.


【 在 Caravel (克拉维尔) 的大作中提到: 】
: There are certainly tons of counter examples. For a corporate software.
the
: first runable version is more likely completed by more than 2 people. The
: open source projects are probably more likely done by 1 or 2 persons
because
:  they are hobby projects at the beginning. 
: of



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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 15:48:24 2019, 美东)

Keep using physical analogy gets you nowhere. Already repeated so many times
, software is closer to poetry or novel than a building, because they are
both virtual.


【 在 Caravel(克拉维尔) 的大作中提到: 】
<br>: Lol, Every building must have a first brick. But it doesn't mean the
first
<br>: brick is the most important one. Think about it: Was Python' initial
version
<br>:  so much better than all the other attempts? I think Guido won't agree
with
<br>: you. He attributes the success of python to continuously bringing in
<br>: improvements and ideas from the entire community.
<br>: s
<br>
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Caravel
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发信人: Caravel (克拉维尔), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 16:24:14 2019, 美东)

Your basic reasoning is problematic.

A software is certainly much closer to a building than poetry or novel.
The software have strict rules, whatever you wrote must be compilable or at
least executable on a machine.

In literature works,you could throw in anything you want. You can even
ignore grammar if you want.


【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: Keep using physical analogy gets you nowhere. Already repeated so many
times
: , software is closer to poetry or novel than a building, because they are
: both virtual.
: <br>: Lol, Every building must have a first brick. But it doesn't mean the
: first
: <br>: brick is the most important one. Think about it: Was Python' initial
: version
: <br>:  so much better than all the other attempts? I think Guido won't
agree
:  with
: <br>: you. He attributes the success of python to continuously bringing in
: ...................




--
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guvest
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发信人: guvest (我爱你老婆Anna), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 16:48:46 2019, 美东)

Lisp is resulted from group efforts.


McCarthy had planned to develop an automatic Lisp compiler using M-
expressions as the language syntax and S-expressions to describe the
compiler's internal processes. Stephen B. Russell read the paper and
suggested to him that S-expressions were a more convenient syntax. Although
McCarthy disapproved of the idea, Russell and colleague Daniel J. Edwards
hand-coded an interpreter program that could execute S-expressions.[2] This
program was adopted by McCarthy's research group, establishing S-expressions
as the dominant form of Lisp.

MSFT's Excel is another example.
【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: Are these software?





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guvest
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发信人: guvest (我爱你老婆Anna), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 16:49:52 2019, 美东)

Guido adopted others ideas from his previous paid language project.
【 在 Caravel (克拉维尔) 的大作中提到: 】
: Lol, Every building must have a first brick. But it doesn't mean the first
: brick is the most important one. Think about it: Was Python' initial
version
:  so much better than all the other attempts? I think Guido won't agree
with
: you. He attributes the success of python to continuously bringing in
: improvements and ideas from the entire community.
: s



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guvest
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发信人: guvest (我爱你老婆Anna), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 16:57:38 2019, 美东)

You are talking about the hinder most illusion.

Is Intel Math Kernel Library (MKL) from one single person's idea?
BLAS? Any physics computation/simulation software?

Golang were from three people, right?

【 在 hci (海螺子) 的大作中提到: 】
: I am talking about the concrete act of building a software.
: Of course nothing comes out of nowhere.
: But the concrete act of initially put an idea (which might be the results
of
:  countless interaction with thousands of people) into a single piece of
: running code, can only be done by at most two people. I have not found any
: evidence to the contrary. Everything I read, all the work I personally
: involved with, and all the things have heard, do not provide a single
: counter-example.





--
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nchip
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发信人: nchip (脑残芯), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 17:32:11 2019, 美东)

So McCarthy invented lisp - 1 person

Daniel and Stephen implement it - 2 people

没毛病

【 在 guvest (我爱你老婆Anna) 的大作中提到: 】
: Lisp is resulted from group efforts.
: McCarthy had planned to develop an automatic Lisp compiler using M-
: expressions as the language syntax and S-expressions to describe the
: compiler's internal processes. Stephen B. Russell read the paper and
: suggested to him that S-expressions were a more convenient syntax.
Although
: McCarthy disapproved of the idea, Russell and colleague Daniel J. Edwards
: hand-coded an interpreter program that could execute S-expressions.[2]
This
: program was adopted by McCarthy's research group, establishing S-
expressions
:  as the dominant form of Lisp.
: MSFT's Excel is another example.



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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 18:22:00 2019, 美东)

I am talking about the concrete act of putting an idea initially in to code.

I am not talking about where the idea come from. I already said, the idea
may be the results of hundreds of interaction with thousands of people. When
it is first realized in code as a running software, it is realized by one
person, or at most two persons.

This is a very specific and concrete description.

No one has been able to come up with a counter example. If you can, I would
like to see it. Because it would be interesting.

【 在 guvest (我爱你老婆Anna) 的大作中提到: 】
: You are talking about the hinder most illusion.
: Is Intel Math Kernel Library (MKL) from one single person's idea?
: BLAS? Any physics computation/simulation software?
: Golang were from three people, right?
: of



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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 18:25:52 2019, 美东)

No, you cannot throw in anything you want in literature. It has strict rules
too, violating the rules and people will not accept it as literature (i.e.
not compile). e.g. you cannot have a novel without a story.

【 在 Caravel (克拉维尔) 的大作中提到: 】
: Your basic reasoning is problematic.
: A software is certainly much closer to a building than poetry or novel.
: The software have strict rules, whatever you wrote must be compilable or
at
: least executable on a machine.
: In literature works,you could throw in anything you want. You can even
: ignore grammar if you want.
: times
: agree




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※ 修改:·hci 於 May 15 18:37:40 2019 修改本文·[FROM: 12.]
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guvest
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发信人: guvest (我爱你老婆Anna), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 18:37:23 2019, 美东)

McCarthy brought us two systems: S-expression and M-expression.

It was not possible to underestimate the importance of the decision of using
the S-expression. That decision came from group engineering efforts.

【 在 nchip (脑残芯) 的大作中提到: 】
: So McCarthy invented lisp - 1 person
: Daniel and Stephen implement it - 2 people
: 没毛病
: Although
: This
: expressions



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hci
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发信人: hci (海螺子), 信区: Programming
标  题: Re: 静态动态是个程序员是流水线工人还是自由工匠的问题
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed May 15 18:40:04 2019, 美东)

Does not matter. Irrelevant.

The code is written by at most two guys. That's my point. You have not come
up with anything to the contrary.

In this business, people say "idea is cheap".

【 在 guvest (我爱你老婆Anna) 的大作中提到: 】
: McCarthy brought us two systems: S-expression and M-expression.
: It was not possible to underestimate the importance of the decision of
using
:  the S-expression. That decision came from group engineering efforts.





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※ 修改:·hci 於 May 15 18:44:05 2019 修改本文·[FROM: 12.]
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